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bardofely
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
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Location: Playa San Marcos, Tenerife
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 Post subject: The ci and ce sound |
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I have just been looking at the lessons and see you have the pronunciation for 'ci' as 'th' which is like I learned in the UK when learning Spanish and started using here but have now unlearned. By that I mean cinco I learned as 'thinko' and now have unlearned the 'th' but to use 's' so I now say sinco.
Same problem with the 'ce' sound. I learned to sound it as 'th' but now hear it as an 's' sound so have changed to sound it that way.
From my experience with listening to people here they all sound 'ci' and 'ce' as an 's' rather than a 'th' so am wondering why you have the 'th' pronunciation.
I have to admit that not being sure about pronunciation is probably a big barrier to speaking more in Spanish. I am sure I am not alone with this as a problem.
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Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:00 pm
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Dianne
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Joined: 07 Aug 2007
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Location: Bonnie Scotland
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sorry Bard,
but with me not speaking the lingo your post went " right over my head !!!!! oops lol maybe one day I'll understand.
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Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:41 pm
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rob
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Location: Tenerife
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It's simple. The lisping ce ci etc are not used in the Canary Islands or most South American countries nor some parts of mainland Spain. It comes from Castillian spanish, which is said to be the purest form of the Spanish language. The locals will understand you if you speak Castillian.
Legend has it that years ago a crown prince lisped and so his fawning courtiers all adopted the lisp in order to make him feel more comfortable.
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Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:05 pm
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bardofely
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 3143
Location: Playa San Marcos, Tenerife
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| rob wrote: | It's simple. The lisping ce ci etc are not used in the Canary Islands or most South American countries nor some parts of mainland Spain. It comes from Castillian spanish, which is said to be the purest form of the Spanish language. The locals will understand you if you speak Castillian.
Legend has it that years ago a crown prince lisped and so his fawning courtiers all adopted the lisp in order to make him feel more comfortable. |
Thanks for clearing that up, Rob, and that legend does sound a likely explanation for how it started!
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Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:24 pm
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funky
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 1683
Location: He's behind you ........
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| rob wrote: | It's simple. The lisping ce ci etc are not used in the Canary Islands or most South American countries nor some parts of mainland Spain. It comes from Castillian spanish, which is said to be the purest form of the Spanish language. The locals will understand you if you speak Castillian.
Legend has it that years ago a crown prince lisped and so his fawning courtiers all adopted the lisp in order to make him feel more comfortable. |
And we all love a good legend!
I think its a slight understatement to say that 'locals will understand you if you speak Castellano'. Its still their national language after all, despite the fact that locals insist they are not Spanish (at least until they want their EU handouts!)
Even in Catalan speaking areas (which is actually a different language as opposed to an accent and a few different words like in Tenerife) everyone speaks and understands Castellano despite their occasional refusal to acknowledge it. The whole of Spain and even South America has extensive educational, T.V, film and migration exposure to the official Spanish accent. A handful of 'ordinarios' half way up Teide might genuinely struggle with it, but for 99% of Tenerife, its just a political choice to play dumb if they pretend they don't understand Castellano.
The choice is whether to adopt the local canarian accent in order to patronise the small remaining percentage of locals (and perhaps a few South Americans) who actually small minded enough to judge people on what accent they speak, or you can learn the official national pronunciation so as not to sound like you're fresh off the boat from Bogota every time you speak to the thousands of mainlanders here or travel to the mainland. You are also far more likely to speak to a mainlander in somewhere official (such as in a bank etc) where professionalism and image might actually matter.
No doubt someone on here will disagree with me on this, so here's a further point for thought. How many of us Brits could genuinely put on either accent well enough, live the type of lifestyle or indeed integrate to the point where the locals might respect them as 'one of the gang' anyway?!? We are Brits! Most of us will always keep a British accent regardless of how fluent we get. We will always sound and look like foreigners. We will almost never get to live like a true canarian. So why go to loads of trouble to imitate the local accent/dialect when it won't make the slightest difference in your life?
Bottom line, if you are learning Spanish from other sources and are already accustomed to using the lisped C, don't turn your life upside down just to try to sound like a local. Chances are you will never be one anyway.
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Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:37 pm
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jenbray
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Great educational post Bard. Its nice to know its not just me who is confused about this after my 15 yr old daughter pointed it out to me and made me feel totally stupid!
So, to complicate things further, when is the V not pronounced as a B? My daughter couldn't help me with that one. Furthermore, I read that J is pronounced HAY but why then is Adeje pronounced as AdeKKI? Nor can I get the CH as in Loch sound! Is it just a Canaries thing? Maybe if I went back to Huddersfield someone would understand me!!!
I have been here for three months now and have bought three Espanol/ingles dictionaries but the kids keep leaving them at school, guess I'd better hit the bookshops again.
Jen |
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Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:33 pm
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rob
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 7420
Location: Tenerife
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| jenbray wrote: |
So, to complicate things further, when is the V not pronounced as a B? My daughter couldn't help me with that one. Furthermore, I read that J is pronounced HAY but why then is Adeje pronounced as AdeKKI? Nor can I get the CH as in Loch sound! Is it just a Canaries thing? Maybe if I went back to Huddersfield someone would understand me!!!
I have been here for three months now and have bought three Espanol/ingles dictionaries but the kids keep leaving them at school, guess I'd better hit the bookshops again.
Jen |
The V is always pronounced B. Although I've heard many good Castillan speakers pronounce it as half and half, in words such as Sevilla!
J is not pronounced HAY. and Adeje is only pronounced AdeKKI by some English people. If you want correct pronunciation do NOT listen to Brits speaking Spanish..... apart from our Jenny, she has a wonderful accent!
Ask a scots person to pronounce loch and then copy the last sound. That is what a J should sound like. It's not just a 'Canaries thing'
Make the kids buy dictionaries from their pocket money, after losing a few they may start to value things
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Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old, You grow old because you stop laughing.
Last edited by rob on Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:09 pm
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bardofely
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
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Location: Playa San Marcos, Tenerife
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| jenbray wrote: | Great educational post Bard. Its nice to know its not just me who is confused about this after my 15 yr old daughter pointed it out to me and made me feel totally stupid!
So, to complicate things further, when is the V not pronounced as a B? My daughter couldn't help me with that one. Furthermore, I read that J is pronounced HAY but why then is Adeje pronounced as AdeKKI? Nor can I get the CH as in Loch sound! Is it just a Canaries thing? Maybe if I went back to Huddersfield someone would understand me!!!
I have been here for three months now and have bought three Espanol/ingles dictionaries but the kids keep leaving them at school, guess I'd better hit the bookshops again.
Jen |
I thought the V was always a B - at least that's what I learned and have stuck with. Although I have heard fluent Spanish and Canarians sounding a V sound!
I think Adeje isn't supposed to be Adekki but has got like that through Brits who cannot sound the ch sound for j.
And Santa Cruz I mainly hear, and have started saying it this way, as Santa Crew! That's another oddity seeing as people who say it that way don't say Lew for Luz!
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Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:11 pm
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rob
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Location: Tenerife
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Please remember that many Spanish people mispronounce and also use poor grammar in their speech just as many Brits do.
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Who am I? Follow the myspacetenerife link under my avatar.
Remember: You don't stop laughing because you grow old, You grow old because you stop laughing. |
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Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:17 pm
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jenbray
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Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 74
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Thanks for the tips. I suppose when learning from books and CDs, I am learning to speak the correctly and will carry on this way. It just gets confusing listening to so many people saying things in different ways. Have you ever been into Manchester city centre in the UK and heard how they speak? Local dialects are so much a part of life that its quite rare to hear 'proper english'. Its probably just the same over here.
Any road up, nev'r eed it, am off darn tut shop, to get some watter ! (thats me, yorkshire through and through). |
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Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:08 am
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SamK
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Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 129
Location: Los Abrigos
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The Scottish Parliament has a version using the Scots language - not to be mistaken for Gaelic -
| Quote: | Scots
Walcome til the Scottish Pairlament wabsite
We want tae mak siccar that as mony folk as can is able tae find oot aboot whit the Scottish Pairlament dis and whit wey it warks. We hae producit information anent the Pairlament in a reenge o different leids tae help ye tae find oot mair.
This section o wir wabsite introduces ye til the information that is tae haun on wir wabsite in Scots. |
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm
quality read 
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online CV - SamKennedy.co.uk
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Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:35 pm
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nia
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Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Icod de los Vinos, Tenerife
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| accents are cool! the best thing about learning a new language is being able to speak to interesting people other than your own kind. just talk to people, ask them,' como se dice..... en español?' and pay attention. ask 10 different people the same question if you like! i'm living proof that one can learn fluent spanish in the (spanish)bars here on tenerife and can gab with any locals and now i teach relaxation & fitness classes in esp. after you get the hang of it you can add any lisp you like at any needed moment. all or most of us who learn spanish as a new language will have our own quirky accent but thats fun and everyone will still know what chu talkin 'bout |
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Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:41 pm
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Elle1971
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Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 177
Location: Lanzarote, Islas Canarias
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I've been trying really hard - and my favourite bar is run by a Canarian. It's way off the beaten track, and the owner is so patient with me. Yesterday we had a great chat... and he was taking the mickey out of me for playing the drums and tamborine when I was in before. LOL. I find that like Nia... getting stuck in and having a go works well. I've been almost forced down the Camarian route. But that's because most of the people we deal with day to day are Canarian... the Spanish guys have tended to stick to the hotels, and busier restaurants and bars here instead - which we don't frequent as much.
I find that the Canarian is easier on the Englsih tongue than Spanish - but this got us stuck in Madrid in January... when we tried with our limited language skills to communicate... and weren't understood at all lol. Tried going back to "textbook Spanish" and failed at that too. More than one person just grinned and said "It's ok - we know you're trying... but I actually understand your English better than your Canarian". LOL
Elle xx
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Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:33 pm
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Chris_and_Leanne
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 1961
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| Elle1971 wrote: | I've been trying really hard - and my favourite bar is run by a Canarian. It's way off the beaten track, and the owner is so patient with me. Yesterday we had a great chat... and he was taking the mickey out of me for playing the drums and tamborine when I was in before. LOL. I find that like Nia... getting stuck in and having a go works well. I've been almost forced down the Camarian route. But that's because most of the people we deal with day to day are Canarian... the Spanish guys have tended to stick to the hotels, and busier restaurants and bars here instead - which we don't frequent as much.
I find that the Canarian is easier on the Englsih tongue than Spanish - but this got us stuck in Madrid in January... when we tried with our limited language skills to communicate... and weren't understood at all lol. Tried going back to "textbook Spanish" and failed at that too. More than one person just grinned and said "It's ok - we know you're trying... but I actually understand your English better than your Canarian". LOL
Elle xx |
ha ha I agree Ellie !
The Canarian we picked up off a Canarian friend of ours did not work at all in Barcelona or Madrid, I asked for a leche, leche and got a glass of milk lol !!
It is much harder learning over here than it is being tipsy in a bar over there 
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Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:56 pm
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bardofely
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Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 3143
Location: Playa San Marcos, Tenerife
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| Chris_and_Leanne wrote: | | Elle1971 wrote: | I've been trying really hard - and my favourite bar is run by a Canarian. It's way off the beaten track, and the owner is so patient with me. Yesterday we had a great chat... and he was taking the mickey out of me for playing the drums and tamborine when I was in before. LOL. I find that like Nia... getting stuck in and having a go works well. I've been almost forced down the Camarian route. But that's because most of the people we deal with day to day are Canarian... the Spanish guys have tended to stick to the hotels, and busier restaurants and bars here instead - which we don't frequent as much.
I find that the Canarian is easier on the Englsih tongue than Spanish - but this got us stuck in Madrid in January... when we tried with our limited language skills to communicate... and weren't understood at all lol. Tried going back to "textbook Spanish" and failed at that too. More than one person just grinned and said "It's ok - we know you're trying... but I actually understand your English better than your Canarian". LOL
Elle xx |
ha ha I agree Ellie !
The Canarian we picked up off a Canarian friend of ours did not work at all in Barcelona or Madrid, I asked for a leche, leche and got a glass of milk lol !!
It is much harder learning over here than it is being tipsy in a bar over there |
I would have given you the same - I understand leche leche as "milk milk!" What is it? 
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Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:28 pm
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